The Permaculture Podcast

Ann Stone - Pennsylvania Women’s Agriculture Network

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My guest for this episode is Ann Stone, an education program associate with Penn State University who coordinates the Pennsylvania Women's Agriculture Network, an organization dedicated to connecting women farmers of all experience levels for networking and education opportunities. During this interview Ann and I discuss what this program is, how it came to be, what the ongoing efforts are to improve and expand the offerings, and what you can do to try and create a similar organization in your area. This program, and others like it, is another example of how we can come together to network and coordinate our efforts. If you are interested in creating a similar organization in your area, you can contact Ann for more information you can find that on her page at Penn State. Coming up next next week, on August 13th, is Paul Garrett speaking about Environmental Education and Outreach. After that is Nicole Foss, and we talk about the next two potential crises: economic and energy contraction. Rounding out August is Dr. Laura Jackson, with a detailed conversation about mono-crop agriculture and restoration ecology. And Keith Johnson gets us started for the month of September. [strong]Resources[/strong]: Ann Stone's Contact Information Pennsylvania Women's Agriculture Network

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Arthur Haines - Wild Foods and Foraging

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My guest for this episode is Arthur Haines, a foraging author and teacher, as well as a plant taxonomist with a deep interest in wild foods. In addition to his biology work with the New England Wild Flower Society, he also runs the Delta Institute of Natural History, where students can learn foraging, wildcrafting, and primitive living skills. In this interview Arthur provides a broad overview of foraging and wild plants, including what a wild plant is, the difference between wild and domesticated plants, and strategies for efficiently collecting wild foods, so that anyone can make foraging for wild foods a part of their life. Along the way we also discuss reconnecting with nature and the role that plays with caring about the natural world, and how that can deepen our understanding of the interconnected nature of natural processes. Though there's a wealth of information in this interview, and I look forward to following up with Arthur in the future for more on wild foods, there are two points about mindset that I'd like to touch on a little more. First, by looking at some of these different perspectives and how they tie to thoughts on permaculture. The anthropocentric view is where people play the central role on earth and focus on the use of natural resources from a purely human perspective. When considered in a utilitarian way, natural resources are to be used to aid the greatest number of people with the largest possible benefit.
Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:28)
As I understand from conversations with a friend who is a Lutheran Seminary student, there's quite a bit of leeway on how to translate the nuances of the Hebrew or Greek that leads to using such words as subdue or dominion, but you could easily argue, especially among Judeo-Christian societies, that this is the primary viewpoint among Western societies, and the global North. Biocentrism, in turn, looks to use and value resources based on the impact these choices have on not only humans, but the rest of life on planet earth as well. One example of this idea is found in Aldo Leopold's land ethic, expressed in his book The Sand County Almanac. His land ethic valued resources independent of their human usefulness or economic value, because a strictly economic view provides us with privileges to use resources, but not the obligations to take care of them. He also considered the interdependence of ecological systems, and how, even if we're not “using” something explicitly, it is still in use by being part of the world we live on. Another perspective on Biocentrism is the idea of Deep Ecology as posited by the Norwegian Philosopher Arne Naess and popularized by Bill Devall and George Sessions. The latter two set out 6 principles that explain the core philosophy of Deep Ecology. The did this in their book Deep Ecology: Living as if Nature Mattered. Those principles are:
1. The well being and flourishing of human and nonhuman Life on Earth have value in themselves. These values are independent of the usefulness of the nonhuman world for human purposes. 2. Richness and diversity of life forms contribute to the realization of these values and are also values in themselves. 3. Humans have no right to reduce this richness and diversity except to satisfy vital needs. [Emphasis in original] 4. The flourishing of human life and cultures is compatible with a substantial decrease of the human population. The flourishing of nonhuman life requires such a decrease. 5. Present human interference with the nonhuman world is excessive, and the situation is rapidly worsening. 6. Policies must therefore be changed. These policies affect basic economic, technological, and ideological structures. The resulting state of affairs will be deeply different from the present.
The last of these three viewpoints is Intergenerational Equality. This idea, which comes from Edith Weiss Brown and her essay What Obligation Does Our Generation Owe to The Next? An Approach to Global Environmental Responsibility, is expresses in three core principes. I've rephrased them here, using her original language. Conservation of Options: That each generation should be required to conserve the diversity of the natural and cultural resource base, so that it does not unduly restrict the options available to future generations in solving their problems and satisfying their own values, and should also be entitled to diversity comparable to that enjoyed by previous generations. Conservation of Quality: Each generation should be required to maintain the quality of the planet so that it is passed on in no worse condition than that in which it was received, and should also be entitled to planetary quality comparable to that enjoyed by previous generations. Conservation of Access: Each generation should provide its members with equitable rights of access to the legacy of past generations and should conserve this access for future generations. I find myself most closely aligned with the intergenerational equality viewpoint, because, as I've said before, I like being able to turn my lights on and like where many of our advances have taken us, but understand that there needs to be a change for the ongoing success and development of human culture. I also think that permaculture ultimately leads to Intergenerational Equity, and is where we should try to guide decision making in the broader society. I say that because in each of Edith Browne Weiss's Conservation principles, I see the ethics of permaculture repeated. I also see her ideas aligned not only with those ethics, but also with the Permaculture Prime Directive that Bill Mollison states on page 1 of Permaculture: A Designers' Manual, which states:
The only ethical decision is to take responsibility for our own existence and that of our children. Make it now. (emphasis in original)
Now then, with those three set forth, in order for us to have a societal shift necessary to implement the changes to build a better world with permaculture, I think that the Anthropocentric, or human centric view, has to be moved to one where we care about not only our own well being but also the other species upon it. Though I'm of an Intergenerational viewpoint, I would be nearly as happy with Aldo Leopold's Land Ethic becoming a the broadly accepted approach. If you've been listening to me for a while, you know I'm fairly middle of the road in many regards, and find that the Deep Ecology perspective is too narrow to engage a large number of people and actually move society. However, I am thankful to those who hold a Deep Ecology viewpoint because, as Arthur said in this interview, the pioneers need to live a slightly more extreme version of the lifestyle than the people they ask to follow them. Also, these other ideas, of the land ethic or intergenerational equality, couldn't develop as completely without the deep ecologists adding their thoughts, ideas, and criticisms, to the conversation. After covering those different perspectives, where do you think you most closely align? Anthropocentric? Biocentric? Intergenerational Equality? Some combination there of? In order to bring about that change, I think we need to get people back in touch with the open sky, the green of the forest, the beauty of the mountains, warm spring rains, the beating heat of a summer sun. Which, to break the seriousness for a moment, that heat also includes the awful humidity of the central Atlantic states here in the U.S. “It's a dry heat", said no one in this area. Ever. To make a generalization here, people are losing a connection with the wider world. If you've never read it before, I recommend checking out Last Child in the Woods by Richard Louv. In this book he discusses the idea of Nature Deficit Disorder, though is clear that he doesn't see it as a clinical disorder, but as a way to encapsulate the notion that American society, at the very least, and it's children have become disconnected from that world outside that's not built by man. That we are animals, and part of the wilderness, even as we entomb ourselves in cities. I know this has lead rather far afield from the conversation at hand with Arthur, but I think that the ideas he presents about wild foods and foraging are a way to begin to get people to reconnecting with the abundance of the world, and move them to considering why they need to care about what happens to those spaces that bulldozers and development haven't yet touched. Food is a great way to bring people together, and an easy way to leverage a conversation about change. Especially if they're eating, and enjoying, something you could teach them to find in their own back yard. Resources: Arthur Haines The Delta Institute of Natural History Ancestral Plants Sam Thayer The Forager's Harvest Nature's Garden Dual Survival Survivorman References: Last Child in the Woods by Richard Louv Natural Resources Law and Policy (2nd ed.) by James Rasband, James Salzman, and Mark Squillance Permaculture: A Designers' Manual by Bill Mollison.

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Niki Jabbour - The Year-Round Vegetable Gardener

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My guest for this episode is Niki Jabbour, a garden writer and author of The Year-Round Vegetable Gardener who lives in Nova Scotia, Canada. I've been aware of Niki and her work for sometime having read her book after my wife checked it out of the library. I wound up buying a copy for my wife because she liked it so much, and I in turn find more to like about it every time I sit down and use it as a reference. In our conversation together, Niki and I talk about her book, the writing process and working with her publisher, gardening in a cold climate year round, and the way we can use our ability to build or modify things, such as cold frames or recycle materials in clouches, to extend the season. She also shares some of her successes, failures, and ongoing experiments before closing out with her encouragement for each of us to get out there and garden. We close with a brief overview of her next book. I find her book invaluable for permaculture practitioners, especially those working in a cold climate, working in Zones 1 and 2. The clarity of information, and the many useful hints and tips make this easier on you, with a complete strategy for using the techniques inside. If you know what your first and last frost dates are, you'll know when to plant your vegetable crops for year round harvesting. And, at under $20 new from the publisher, it represents a good value. The layout work the publisher did, with the charts, color coding, and clear index, make sorting through to find what you need simple. As a general gardening book, there's plenty to go off of, plus you can readily adapt what you find using the principles of permaculture. Also, Niki is doing this, so you get to see her with her garden, working in it year round, including in the snow. Whether you're new to gardening, or find that what you're doing doesn't work, or simply would like another voice from the gardening world, it is worth picking up. And, as Kirsten Reinford mentioned in our interview together, farmer's are considered new or beginning for their first 10 years, and I think it's fair to place gardeners in that same category. Even then, there is an imperative for life long learning and adaptation. Resources: Niki Jabbour The Year Round Veggie Gardener (Her Blog) The Year-Round Vegetable Gardener The Complete Compost Gardening Guide by Barbara Pleasant and Deb Martin The Drunken Botanist by Amy Stewart Growing a Greener World and Joe Lamp'l Worms Eat My Garbage by Mary Appelhof Veg Plotting by Michelle Chapman. The garden blog home of the 52 Week Salad Challenge. Canadian Pesticide By-Law Information: Law and Ornamental Gardens - Non-essential Pesticides Banning Cosmetic Pesticides in British Columbia Ontario and Nova Scotia Lead the way on Pesticide Bans Day Length Calculator: The link below is a simple way to find out when in the year your day length slips below that magical number of 10 hours of daylight. You'll need to know your latitude, which you can find by doing a web search using your nearest city name and latitude, or look up your address with Google Earth. Day Light Hours Explorer Enter the latitude on the right hand side of the utility, then using the slider, move the point along the curve to see when the Number of Daylight Hours dips below 10, and again rises up to 10. Note the dates on the bottom of the graph, and you now know the period when the amount of daylight is too short to grow most plants.

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Josh Trought - D Acres

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My guest for this episode is Josh Trought of D Acres in New Hampshire. Josh is a working farmer, woodworker, educator, and might I dare say, community builder. In this conversation we start, as usual, with his background and how he came to be a working farmer and a name known in the permaculture community. The experience of how he got to this place forms the ground we walk over while discussing his work starting, growing, and looking into the future of D Acres. As is often the case in these interviews, he is candid about the mistakes, successes, and the amount of work that actually goes into making a go at this kind of project. Though it took time, that effort is now paying off. I wrapped up this episode soon after the release of the interview with Erik Ohlsen, so still had that chat with Erik fresh in my memory. What Josh is doing represents another way to consider how to make a living while doing something that you love. In this particular case, in order to support D Acres, it is through a diversity of income streams ranging from farming, to the bed and breakfast, wood working, and selling cord wood, among others. With that work, and I don't doubt at all that there's plenty to go around, is the salvation that Josh finds in his labor with the land, the animals, the products that come from it, and the people that come through it. I'm on a bit of a kick thinking about how all the ideas of the various guests interrelate in describing the broad umbrella of ideas we can consider as part of permaculture. I say this because Josh's efforts speak to the dignity of labor that Bob Theis and I talked about. Josh's idea of land stewardship echoes Bob's thought about not despoiling some piece of land that doesn't need us, but to look for a house in the city that does. In Josh's case, this isn't about the city, but looking for ways to preserve farm land in a way that doesn't require familial bonds to keep it in perpetuity for the people that would choose to live and work there. Then there's the experiences that Josh has gone through in order to get where he's at. Building a name for himself through what he did. Overcoming those initial thoughts that he and his companions would grow exotic asian greens and sell them to hip folks at $20 a pound. Going from that first ½ bushel of garlic in the late 1990s to less than 20 years later to being well beyond subsistence, growing enough food to eat the majority of their meals from food grown on-site meals, while also serving thousands of other to the people who visit, and still maintaining a well stocked root cellar. Here's a working model to show others in the community, and to the world. Going further into the archives is Ethan Hughes and his idea about meeting people where they're at. Josh has had to go from moving in and being an oursider, to becoming a regular and involved member of his community. He couldn't do that by being insulated from, or fighting against, the town he moved into. I'm still amazed at how each guest on this podcast finds their own way to what they're known for. Even as people proceed down similar paths the results are so varied that there's still room for others to try their hand at various tasks until they find their own niche. The last thought I'll leave you with from this interview was Josh's statement:
I think the answer is in trying to seek solutions.
We will find a way forward by doing. Go out there and get started. I'll meet you along the way. Resources: Josh Trought D Acres D Acres on YouTube

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Erik Ohlsen - Professional Permaculture

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My guest for this week is Erik Ohlsen, owner of Permaculture Artisans an ecological design and installation firm, as well as licensed contractor, in California. He is also a permaculture teacher and began teaching in 2001.

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Bob Theis - Natural Building and Design

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My guest for this episode is Bob Theis, an architect familiar with natural building and permaculture from northern California.

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Review: Growing for Market Magazine

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This episode is a review of Growing for Market magazine.

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Dr. Wayne Dorband - Ecolonomics

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My guest for this episode is Dr. Wayne Dorband, a member of the board of the Institute of Ecolonomics.

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Nathaniel Mulcahy - World Stove

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My guest for this episode is Nathaniel Mulcahy, owner and founder of World Stove, a company that produces and distributes pyrolytic gasification stoves all around the world. These stoves are tailored to fit the specific needs of each culture and community that uses them.

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Wayne Herring - Starting a Sustainable Family Farm

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My guest for the episode is Wayne Herring, owner, along with his wife Katherine and fellow family member Michael, of Herring's Green Grass Farm.

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